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This is the BBC.This podcast is supported byadvertising outside the UK.In these programs, we’ve been speaking to people whoare influencing the way we teach our children.But the most important educator inany child’s life is their parents.And what they do in the first five years is critical.That’s why when Margie Wally co founded Pengreen Nurseryin Corbyn, Northampton sure, 30 years ago, she involvedmothers and fathers from the very first day.By keeping the door open to them, she waseducating the parents as well as the child.Since then, her ideas haveinfluenced nurseries across the country.Margie Wally, how much of a child’s future do youthink is determined before they even get to school?I think the impact of home learning is criticaland I think having your parents be passionate advocateson your behalf is everything for a child.That doesn’t mean that parents haveto see themselves as professional educators.It means that parents are people who will goto unreasonable lengths on behalf of their children andbroker their children’s journey through the education system.We talk all the time about narrowing the gap,but what really matters is that parents see theirrole as their child’s first educator and feel thatthe knowledge they have about their child in thehome is valued by the professional educators in theearly childhood settings and in the schools.And I don’t think many parents feel that theirknowledge is respected and valued in that way.But it is certainly the case that, well, firstof all, every parent loves their own child, butthey don’t always do best by them.I mean, unwittingly, they’re making mistakes.I think we all make mistakes with ourchildren, and I’ve certainly promised my child therapyin the future if she needs it.But I think the issue for me is that thereis not a parent in England, I believe, who doesn’twant more for their child than they had themselves.And working in collaboration with theprofessionals in the education system makesor breaks a child’s school career.Parents have powerful knowledge about howtheir children learn and develop.And if parents are overwhelmed by everyday pressures, then it’svery hard for them to take on that role.But then it’s our job inour shorestats, our children’s centres.All those projects were about making iteasier for parents to engage with professionals.So tell us how it works at Pengreen andtell us about the area that it’s in.Corby is the most amazing place to work inand every day it’s a source of wonder.The Corby project at Pengreen developedjust when the steelworks were closed.So in that community where I work, 43%unemployment, 50% single parents and 78% of thefamilies had come down from Glasgow.So they would come down in the fullof hope for a town with full employmentand then suddenly the steelworks closed.So Corby is amazing in terms ofthe energy for people, for change.It’s a community of oppression.And the deprivation indices are so high in Corby.You’ve got castles just down the way, you’vegot manor houses, you’ve got all the beautyof Rutland and Leicestershire close by.But we have inner city deprivation indices.And that’s what the challenge is in termsof education and health outcomes for children.And those are the children that you’re taking intothis and those are the children that come intoour centre and the parents you’re working with?Absolutely.So we match the way that parents are engaging with theirchildren at home with the way that we engage with thechildren in a nursery setting and we share knowledge.Parents are full of insightinto what excites their children.They’re with them the majority of the time.Even if they’re in an early childhoodsetting, 30 hours a week, they’re stillwith their parents most of the time.And what we need to do is listen to howthe parents engage with those children, what those children’s centralconcerns and interests are, and build on that.You’re making it sound like you’re learning fromthe parent rather than the other way around.I think to some extent we have to be a bit humbleabout what we can do with children in a setting where theymay come in for 5 hours a day or less.If we don’t listen to what the parents aredoing, then we’ve got nothing to build on.There was fabulous research in the 70s that showedwhen you did harness the enormously untapped energy ofparents and their excitement about what their children weredoing, you can really make a difference.I mean, every parent, wittingly or unwittingly, is observingtheir child all of the time, trying to makesense of their child’s learning and development, trying tounderstand why their child prefers the box the toycame in rather than the toy itself.Every parent is trying to make sense of that bysharing child development concepts with parents and by listening tothe parents, we have something to build on.Well, let’s hear from the school itself.I was shown around Pen Greenby your deputy head, Annette Cummings.Okay, we’re going to go into the Cussy.What’s the Cussy?The Cussy is one of our infant toddler provisions.It’s called the cussie, which is aScottish word for sociable and friendly. Right.And it’s scottish.I know this because there were huge amount of we’regoing back to the Scottish a lot of Scottish peoplecame here to work in the steel work.What age are these little children?These range from nine months toabout two and a half years. Right.And the Cussy is what?Because you’ve got a handfulof young little toddlers here. Look at them.Well, they can come in from nine months and they’rewith our key workers till about two and a half,and then they’ll transfer into our nursery provision.You’ve got quite a big site here.So how many under four year olds you catering for?It must be 300.300.Approximately 300.300 infants and toddlers on the site, which is huge.Yes.And obviously we have groups running atthe same time, so parents will bewith their children and groups as well.So you’re catering for anything here, whether it’s somebody arrivingwith a baby or a toddler or leaving them?Yeah, but we do an awful lot of workin terms of transitioning children from home to nursery,as we have a two week settling in periodwhere parents will come with their children and settlethem into the provision ready for them to leave.And so the children are feeling safe, they’re feelingthat this is their place and they belong here.And if parents want to come and justspend some time here with them, absolutely fine.Absolutely fine.Open door to the parents. Really? Yes.There’s a child in a basket over there sleeping.That’s their sleep area.Some people have called themdog baskets, but they’re sleeping.But they’re child height.So a child with their feelingtired can go in and sleep.We’re watching a little boy now and he must beno more than one, and he’s just got out ofhis he’s just woken up from his sleep.Sometimes two get in together, but that’s okaybecause at home they would get into bedwith maybe their brother or sister.It’s terribly sweet.Okay.We’re walking now into a huge room.So it’s like a regular nursery, but on steroids.I mean, it’s a huge room.It used to be the old schoolgym, so we converted this pen.Green makes a lot of the idea ofgetting children as early as possible into education.Do you call this education or is this childcare?It’s education with care, not childcare.Absolutely not.Because we believe in the value of play.You can tease out the value ofplay in most activities with children.So they’ll be learning through learning there.This is about offering a very good provisionfor children in terms of their cognitive development.Children are not born with empty slates.Children come already born pre programmed to learn.It’s an instinctive thing about them going tolearn, and with that they have learning experiences.This is Kat and this is Laura. Hi.Hi, Laura and Kat.Where do you work?So we work in the family support team.So we do a lot of our work in children’shomes, doing lots of home visits and things like that.So we collect them from home, bring them in, spend themorning with them here, they’ll eat with us, and then wetake them home at the end of their session.Do you then have to identify those people whoare perhaps aren’t engaging, or is that the thinkingbehind come to us by a referral from anotherprofessional that’s already working with them?Maybe a health visitor or asocial worker that’s already involved.So it’s the thinking that you can teach parents how tobe the best parents if you are spending time with them?Is that the no, I wouldn’t say that we wouldbe teaching parents how to be the best parents.I think it’s more about working alongsideparents and building on their strengths.You didn’t like me saying that at all. Why not?Go on, explain.Exactly.I could see you, didn’t I? But why not?Isn’t that what it’s about?I don’t think it is, no.I don’t think it’s about teaching parents how tobe how I think a parent should be.I think it’s about parents learning. “ WWW.ARMINIC.COM “ Along the journey and us being besidethem to support them in that journey.We’ve kind of likened the role in the past toa little bit like a really loving and caring grandmother.So it’s not somebody that’s going to come into ahome and be very teachery and tell you, you shouldn’tdo this, you shouldn’t do that, you shouldn’t do that,but have more of an understanding about where the familyare at and work very supportively and closely.And I think obviously in terms of safeguarding,there are certain boundaries and we would adhereto them, but other than that, we wouldwork on the parents and the family agenda.You’re talking about where a child might be at risk.Yeah, absolutely.But it’s very much about and you talkabout being like a grandmother, the role ofa grandmother, it’s getting parents to trust you.Relationship building is a massive part of itand building that trust and for a lotof the families that we support in particular,that trust hasn’t been there before.Maybe with anybody, particularly with professionals.If they’ve grown up in a care situationor they’ve been terrified of other professionals beinginvolved, that can be a really big task.One of the biggest jobs that wehave is to build a relationship.Okay, so what do you do if you gointo somebody’s home, say, that you don’t know?Well, it can be a range of things.In the past, we’ve bathed children, we’vehelped them get ready for their day.And I think, like, our first call is to talkabout their child because the parent knows the child thebest, so they’re the expert on that subject.So if we start talking about their child, that’sthe very beginning of a relationship that’s going togrow because we’re interested in their child.But it’s listening to you’re alsoslightly like social workers as well.We don’t like to think so.Family workers, we classed as family workers, butwe recognize that our roles are very similarto that of a social worker.And for me, who we arelike is not particularly important.It’s how we are with parents is important,as opposed to whether we’re a social workeror a teacher or a family support worker.Okay, so it’s raining quite a bit. They’re all outside.They’re outside.And why wouldn’t you come out in therain if you’ve got trikes to go on? Absolutely.Why would you not get outsideand experience the weather experience outdoors?The facilities, I mean, thefacilities here are incredible. Absolutely.So every child is going to have a good experience here.They’re going to want to come here as well. Absolutely.That’s what we want.We want them to come.But I think the philosophy to work, you can’tput a price on you can’t put a priceon changing a parent’s way of life.It doesn’t happen overnight.It’s an investment of time and staff and moneyto make sure these parents and children are goingto be the best they possibly can.But you do have to put a price on it, don’t you?I mean, I know it would be nice to thinkyou couldn’t, but if you want to make it work,maybe I think we should pay some higher taxes.But there we go.That’s probably not answering your question, but if youlook at places like Denmark where their tax isvery high, the provisions there are just fantastic interms of their education, in terms of their earlychildcare and end of life as well.We don’t have that.Margie wally, you do have to puta price on it, don’t you?Is this expensive?It costs more than care, but thenit makes far more difference than childcare.Most parents are aware that if youhave teacher educators working with the childrenand highly qualified staff, then you geta much better enhanced outcome for children.In our particular nursery, we have worked incrediblyhard to develop a 78% graduate workforce.Now, in the private sector, the workforce inthe main would not be a graduate workforce.They would have NVQ three qualifications, which wouldbe quite a basic level of qualification.So we’re not comparing like with like.And yes, it does cost more, but proportionally,for what you’re actually getting out of theservice, the cost is appropriate if you’re goingto make a difference for those children.I know it’s very hard to getthe detail on this for various reasons.The complexity of the center you’re running is ita great deal more expensive than other centers.I mean, if you’re making the case to the council, look,continue our funding, what is it that you say to them?We say to the council, we’re value for money.We’ve built the service up to over 120 staff.We work with over 2000 adults and children.But if you compare us with the private sector,if you compare us to a packaway nursery ina church hall where all the staff will bemillionairely qualified, if they’re qualified at all, then clearlywe’re more expensive, but we’re more effective.We can transform children’s life chances.Okay, what is the evidence of that?What is the evidence that you are making thatmuch of a difference and it’s cost effective?There’s evidence from the children that we takeinto our nursery 26% of the children withspecial needs and disabilities, 29% of the childrenwhose families need a lot of family support,child protection and safeguarding.So we’re engaging with families that wouldn’t beable to access, in many cases, other services.You heard Kat talking aboutcollecting children, bringing them in.That just couldn’t happen in the private sector.What we can show from our data isthat over the last three years we’ve improvedoutcomes for children very significantly in our setting.We’ve gone from 46% of children getting a goodlevel development last year to 60% this year.And that’s including 50% of the cohort who arechildren who are perceived as having additional needs.Now, this is I mean, it’s so that people understand.They assess a child at the age offive when they go to primary school.And that’s one of the measures.And we are assessing children’sprogress all of the time.And I would say that those assessments donot measure a child’s resilience, a child’s compassion,a child’s ability to self regulate.And we also assess those things.And because we should say that compared with Corby,if you look at that good level of developmentat age five, you’re actually in line with what’shappening in the local area and a bit behindwhat’s happening in the whole of the county.Northamptonshire Corbett’s deprivationindices are huge.You can’t overcome in a two, three,or even a 30 year period.You cannot compensate for the poor healthand conditions that people are living in.If you’re in the bottom 6% of the whole of thelocal authorities of England, you’ve got a long way to go.But we’ve been looking at children who left onnursery and who are now between 16 and 21.Far more of those children are going on tofurther and higher education than ever before in corby.So you have to look at the long term.I mean, the parents engagement innursery at the moment is phenomenal.We have over 84% of the parents bringingin the material about the children’s learning athome, sharing it, talking with us, building ontheir child’s strengths and interests.But that isn’t yet generally accepted in theschools, and we need to help it tobe harnessed better in the school system.Okay, let’s hear from Naomi eisenstadt now.She was the first director of Shorestar.She’s now at OxfordUniversity’s department of Education.There’s a tension in earlier’s policy on poverty,which is, are we about fewer poor childrennow, or are we about alleviating the impactof poverty on the next generation?If we’re about fewer poor childrennow, then we’re keen on employmentfor parents and therefore affordable childcare.If we’re about alleviating poverty for the nextgeneration, we want the children who experience childcareto experience the highest quality and therefore havethe boost in educational readiness that will meanthat they’ll thrive at school.Of course, Penn Green was one of thefirst of the really good, highly integrated centersthat both had high quality early education andcare, as well as integrated support for families.And Penn Green was one of the centers thatthe civil servant, Norman Green, who originated the Shorestopprogram, looked at and was very, very impressed by.I think that the most basic evidence interms of what works for the majority ofchildren is high quality, teacher led early education,five days a week, five half days.Of course, for the employability agenda, this isn’t terriblyattractive because it’s very, very difficult to get wraparoundin terms of that five half days.There are a series of parenting programs thatare helpful in terms of children’s behavior, whereparents learn better management strategies for children.And some of these are very wellevidenced, but they’re very expensive to deliver.Margie Wally the way that you integrate, the way thatyou get parents involved is in large part by video.Explain how that works.There’s no parent in England.If they knew there was a video playingat their nursery that night, that wouldn’t turnout, even on a wet and windy night.Parents love to watch their children.It dates back to the 18th century.Charles Darwin loved to watch his child.Anna all the great scientists, all thegreat educationalists, have observed their own children. “ WWW.ARMINIC.COM” And contemporary parents are as excited and curiousand want to watch their children and wantto understand why they’re doing what they’re doing.Where does it lead educationally?So using video is the concretedata set that parents need.And you video children in the children’s center and you askparents to video at home and to bring them in.What’s the advantage of it?The research, which was outstanding research in the1970s by Chris AThe, which followed up byPatrick Easen at Newcastle University, showed that whenparents and staff shared their knowledge and understanding,you had a much richer perception of whatthe child was really interested in.And then you could match rich curriculum contentto support that child’s learning and development.Give us an example.Yesterday in their baby nest, a child was wantingto have shawls and cloaks and was in enactinga little drama, two and a half year old.Clearly she was being Elsa from Frozen and was reenactingthis and she was draping the clothes around herself andthat mum collected that child at lunchtime and she tookher off to a group work in the afternoon.And in that group, the worker in thatsetting had no idea where she’d just comefrom or what she’d been interested in.The mother showed what she had been doing inthe morning because she’d been sent it, a littlevideo of it, and said she’s desperately trying tobe the star of her own movie again.And they were able to supporther in the appropriate way.It happens all the time that children’sintentions are misinterpreted because there’s no continuityand there’s no concrete data about whatare they really fascinated by?Don’t children want to do everything they might want?If you just actually children have really powerful cognitiveconcepts that they are trying to explore all ofthe time, and often adults find those concepts difficultbecause the child is very determined, very feisty, andwants to understand and make sense of the world.And these are Piagetian concepts.And parents actually love to understandthat bit of child development.You better quick explain Piagetian meaning.Piaget was the most eminent cognitivepsychologist who developed a deep understandingof how children learn and develop.His most important work was actually someof the observations he made of hisown children when they were very young.And he observed these powerful patternsof play in children’s learning.And Chris Athey took this forward in the she’sgiven us a plethora of literature now to helpus to communicate with parents how children really learn.And you teach the parents these various schemasso that you will tell a parent, yourchild likes to envelop or transport.I know there’s all of this.Yes, a little transporting child willbe walking around with a buggy.They won’t have a doll in the buggy.They will be carrying things in the buggy,and they’ll be walking all around the nurseryand transporting things from one room to another.But if you interrupt where the child is deeply,deeply involved, you do it at your peril becausethe child is frustrated then and can’t continue tolearn in the way that they need to learn.Okay, well, let’s hear from some of theparents that I spoke to at Pengreen.I started using the centre when my oldest wastwo weeks old, so it really helped me.On those early days when you’re feeling alittle bit anxious, you’re exhausted, then going throughto nursery, it’s just the workers think verydeeply about the children, so you can understandyour children and what they’re doing.Cherise, what about you?Are you doing things differently at home with yourchildren as a result of what you’ve learned here?Without a doubt.In terms of my daughter, she’s a massive enveloper.So Evie likes cuddling things and she likes blanketsand she wraps things up and keeps them contained.So we were able to support that at home. What about you?I’ve got three very small children and thecenter for me has made me survive.And going from day to day, I was veryopen and honest, said, I need some help.Can you help me with this?Nobody gave me the answers.They just helped me to realize the potential of thechildren and what to look out for and support them.But by coming here, everybody here hasjust made me enjoy the children.And from their point of view, doyou think their behaviour is different?Yeah, absolutely.Because I was learning and then whatever theywere discussing, I would try at home.How have you found that it works?Vasilica it works fine, because I can compare my son previousson, the way he developed with what I see now.And I can understand exactly how the schoolsystem works because I come from aboard, I’ma foreigner, so the system is totally different.So you can watch video from hisday at nursery, is that right? Yes.And that’s very, very good, because Ican carry on with whatever his interestback home and the farther activities outside.For example, my husband didn’t have any connectionwith the nursery because he’s working, but athome, he can watch his son in nursery.And it’s a huge thing. He does do that.Does he does do that, because that’s the only timehe can watch his son playing in the nursery.Maggie wally, how easy is it to engage parents?Do they want to be involved?My experience is, if you hook themin the right way, they do.I don’t think they like being taught to dostuff, and particularly fathers would resent that, I think.I think they want you toacknowledge what they already know.We want to engage with all the important adults in achild’s life and then give some feedback to the parent.And that’s what hooks people in, knowingthat you are interested in their child.You make the point that thisis about education, not childcare.But for many parents, whether they’re working, they’vegot busy lives, they’ve got other children.In large part, it is just plugging the gaps.Who’s going to look after my child?I don’t believe that’s true.I’ve worked in Brazil, I’ve worked in Papua NewGuinea, I’ve worked in countries where people were desperatelyhaving to work to support their families.And of course that’s true in the UK as well.But I think parents do know, almost withoutfail, parents know, that the first five yearsof a child’s life is critical.That rhetoric is everywhere.But if you have 15 hours of childcare that’s paidfor, is it that the child comes into you fortwo days or for 3 hours every day?I think that’s really hard to generalize asfar as what’s good for children goes.And sometimes what’s good for children isn’t what’sgood for family life in the 21st century.So you have to accept that cover for twodays and then not see their family worker forfive days is really quite hard for children.That’s a pain, though.If you’re working, it’s much easier to havetwo days and then for continuity, have afamily member possibly look after other days.But that’s assuming you have got afamily member who’s prepared to do that.Most of the grannies in Corby wouldstill be young enough to be working.But do you encourage your parents to come to bringtheir children in every day for a few hours?Most of the parents who have children underthree are still only working part time.But parents who are working with children fromtwo to five in the main nurseries couldbe working any number of shifts.If they’ve got school age children at home, as well asnursery age children, they are having to mix and match.And some parents are in jobs that payenough so they can buy some additional hours.But many parents are not in that position.So I think what we try and do is work withthe family on what will work to support that family best.But ideally, children would like to be inthe provision most days of the week.You don’t like the idea of teaching parents,but there will be some families who youbecome aware they’re chaotic, their child isn’t ina routine, there isn’t a pattern, they’re inconsistent.Do you not then give much more guidance to the parent?I think then you try and uncover what’sgoing on in somebody’s chaotic and fragmented lifeand it’ll be different in every case.If it’s postnatal depression, if it’s poverty, if it’sloneliness, if it’s whatever the reasons are for that,I don’t think you can say there’s one parentingeducation program that magically turns a parent who’s apparentlynot coping very well into a parent who’s coping.I think most of it’s about socioeconomic circumstances andthe family challenges that all of us face atone stage or other in our lives, I think.But if you look at the outcomes, canyou say, look, this is the setup athome which produces the happy success?I think there would be an incredibly arrogant personwho would make that kind of a judgment.I think every child needs somebody who’sa passionate advocate on their behalf, atleast one person in their life.And they may not be their birth parent.It may be their foster parent, their adoptive parent.It may be an older member of the family.It may be a granny or a grandpa.That’s the only thing, is that the most important thingto have an individual who all the research from Fonegy,from all the studies of what makes the big differenceis the parent who is committed to that child isthe adult who’s committed the important adult for that child.And I think if you think you’rejust working with children, it’s a mistake.I think you need to work with children andtheir families and the important adults in their lives.You won’t narrow the gap for children’s outcomesunless you harness that energy from the parents.Do you think we don’t care enough about childcare and the education of the very young?I think we have a wonderful rhetoric in every government inthe last 33 years has said that they value it.But at the moment we don’t put ourmoney where our mouth is around this.We are only prepared to pay childcare workersand early years educators appallingly low salaries, minimumwage salaries, less than we’d pay our cleaners.And while that continues, we will never get thekind of workforce that can transform children’s life chances.Margie Wally, thank you very much.
