1. Phenomenon Learning: A teaching approach that removes the traditional boundaries between subjects, allowing students to explore topics in a holistic way, emphasizing active participation, research, and evaluation.

2. Overhauling: Making significant changes or reforms to a system, in this context, referring to the transformation of the way schools in Finland teach.

3. Collaboratively: In a cooperative and coordinated manner, often involving joint planning and efforts.

4. Pedagogy: The method and practice of teaching, including the strategies, techniques, and principles involved in instruction.

5. Cross Disciplinary: Involving multiple disciplines or fields of study; considering and integrating ideas and perspectives from different subjects.

6. Comprehensive Education: A system that provides education to all students irrespective of their background or family support, fostering inclusivity.

7. Inclusive: Emphasizing the involvement and equal treatment of all individuals, including those with diverse backgrounds or abilities.

8. Decentralized: Distributed or dispersed decision-making authority, often referring to the autonomy of individual schools or teachers.

9. Progressivist: A pedagogical approach that emphasizes hands-on and experiential learning, often associated with a more student-centered philosophy.

10. Cross-Disciplinary Thinking: The ability to analyze and solve problems by considering different perspectives and utilizing the tools of various subjects or disciplines.

11. Holistic: Considering the whole or entire system rather than focusing on individual parts; comprehensive.

12. Socio-economic Disparities: Differences or inequalities in social and economic status or opportunities among individuals or groups.

13. Memorize: To commit something to memory, typically by rote learning.

14. Innovative: Introducing new ideas, methods, or technologies; characterized by a willingness to explore and create.

15. Experiential Learning: Learning through direct experience and active engagement, often involving real-world applications.

16. Pedagogical Freedom: The freedom of teachers to make decisions about teaching methods, content, and approaches, often associated with autonomy in the educational system.

17. Inclusivity: The quality of being inclusive, involving everyone and not excluding any particular group or individual.

18. Pisa Rankings: Refers to the Programme for International Student Assessment (PISA) rankings, which assess and compare educational systems worldwide.

19. Progressive Education: An educational philosophy that emphasizes active learning, critical thinking, and the development of practical skills.

20. Autonomy: The ability or condition of self-governance and independence, often applied to individual schools or teachers in an educational context.

This is the BBC.This podcast is supported by advertising outside the U.K.I’m about to do what thousands of politiciansand educators have done over the last decade,which is get on a plane to Finland.It was in 2001 that the firstGlobal Education League table was published.And to everyone’s surprise, since then thissmall northern European country has been ator near the top of the list.Governments around the world havewanted to know their secret.But what’s happened since isin many ways more interesting.Finland’s world leading standards in reading, maths andscience have been falling and the country isnow overhauling the way its schools teach.Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to Helsinki.Please remain seated until the safetyof science has been stolen.Helsinki is leading the wayin reforming the country’s education.My educator today, Dr.Mario Culinan, is overseeing the changehere and in large part, Dr.Kulinan, it’s a move towhat you call phenomenon learning.Can you tell us what that means?Well, in practice it means that weare removing the boundaries in between thesubjects and in the traditional way.The pupils, they went to class, they havetheir math lesson, then they have science, thenthey have literature and so on.And now instead of learning isolated knowledge of differentsubjects, the role of the pupil is active.They are taking part in planning process, they areresearchers and then they are also evaluating the process.So can you give us an example ofthe kind of thing they might study?Well, r1 example, there were some three, four gradersthey were discussing with their teacher and they said,we’d like to study smartphone, the phenomenon of smartphone,and we would like to know the history oftelephone, how it has developed.We could study mathematics, make statistic for whatreasons they are using the phone, we canhave literature and see how text messages havechanged the written language and so on.So it was their idea and they couldimmediately connect them to the traditional subjects.And I think that’s the nature of the child.They want to know new things, but in a waywe have managed to kill that joy in our schools.And teachers have towork collaboratively across subjects.Yes, actually they have to.And one main idea in this phenomenon learningis that teachers plan together and the pupilsare involved in the planning process as well.Why is it so important to you?I believe very strongly that the traditionalway of teaching different subjects is notpreparing our kids for the future wherethey need more cross disciplinary thinking.They have to looking at thesame problem from different perspectives andusing different tools of different sciences.So you often hear children say, whydo I need to learn this?And your proposal is that a childwould never ask that question again.Yeah, I believe that when they are learningin this way, we connect their learning processto the real life questions or the problems.So it makes sense to our kids.It’s something that’s been introduced in Helsinki forthe last few years and you’re about tomake it mandatory across the country. Yes.How does it fit with what we know ofFinnish schools, the very famous public image, something that’sbeen seen as the recipe of your success, thatin addition to high quality teachers, you have schoolsthat seem quite laid back.Pupils don’t start till they’re seven, there’s noexternal exam until they leave at 19.And the schools themselves have a lot of freedom.Does that all stay?It will all stay there.And what we believe very strongly that as the worldhas changed around us, we need to rethink our procedures.How do we teach things or howdo pupils learn things at school?Because the traditional school, it was madefor the needs of industrial era.That’s why we can’t lean back, but we have tolook forward and see what are the proper tools forour learners to be successful members of the future society.So if you think it’s such a goodthing, how far can you go with it?Could you ditch all subjects?Well, I think in a way, you could havethe approach of phenomenal learning in every subject sothat it makes sense to the pupils.In worst case, pupils are just trying to remember byheart and then they can’t see any connection what theyare learning at the school to their real life.So you can have the sameapproach even when studying single subjects?You can have phenomenon learning within a yes.And this kind of approach that it’s connected to thereal life, they could do that in a collaborative way.So ultimately your ambition would be that allschools all day are phenomenon based learning. In a way.In a way.I’ve been to a school a short distance from here.Its deputy principal has been incharge of introducing phenomenon learning.And they do it now for a fifth of the school year.Hello. Sarah Montague. Hello. Nice to meet you. Welcome.Let’s go inside our lovely old building.And I’m going to practice my Finnish it’s etut.Yes, etuque.Upper secondary school.And you have what?You’ve got the big building and a lot of students here.Yes, we have about 650 students here andthey are from 16 to 19 years old. Okay.And it’s a wonderful old building. Yes.Actually, the school is almost 100 years old.Weaver estoplished 1919.So we are almost as old as Finland. Okay.And here we are.We’re right in the heart of Helsinki. Yes.Actually, straight inside we’ve got lots of basically teenagerslounging on sofas on their phones, which I guessis a scene you’d see anywhere in the world. Yes.The phone is the best friend.So give us an example of the kind of thingthat you have done as a phenomenon project here?Well, actually, our chemistry students have beencreating a chemistry workshop for the youngerchild, and they have been teaching them.And then this restaurant day we have in Finland andour Spanish and Swedish courses, they took a part ofa restaurant day, and they had a restaurant here.So now this year, the phenomenon is a good life.And then the subject teacher is saying that, let’sthink what good life means in my subject.How do you see it?It’s kind of a problem solving, and the pointis to see that all these subjects has adifferent view for this theme or this phenomenon.So you’ve been doing the phenomenon learningfor a few years now here.How have the teachers taken to it?Because it is a huge change for them. It is.It’s a huge change.And a point that I’m trying to tell them isthat this is about the ownership of our students learning.And I think that when we change ourattitude that the teacher has not the ownership,but the student owns his own learning process.This is a hard work for the teacher becauseyou have to think, what have you been doingbefore, and do the students really need it?And then you have to challengeyourself and try new things.But I always say to them that if you takesomething new, you have to leave behind something old.I mean, you’re clearly a fanof this new way of working.What do you lose out by doing this?I think that the one big thingthat you lose is a control.And usually teachers, they like control, andthat’s something that you don’t have anymore.You are part of that learning process.Okay, let’s go this way.And we will meet two of our students,Leo and Aram, and you can interview them.Hi, Leo. I’m Sarah.Hi, nice to meet you.Aram, pleasure. Nice to meet you.Very good to meet you.We’ve been talking about phenomenon based learning.The projects that you’ve been doing, is it somethingthat you think could replace your normal lessons?Perhaps. Maybe.It has its pluses and minuses, though.It’s something different.And the teachers do get creative, and they comeup with new ways of learning and teaching.So that’s fun because one of the things wewere hearing about it is that actually you’re abit more responsible for your own learning.Were you aware of that?Yeah, they made it clear that they would just giveus the tools, and it was up to us tokind of do more work for ourselves, and the teacherswouldn’t be around all the time to guide us.And did that bother you? Not me, no. “ WWW.ARMINIC.COM “ Go, but I wouldn’t want it to last awhole year because it’s great to have some creativefreedom in learning every now and then.But there’s still that traditional educationthat gets the message through.I think Mario Killinan Leo there saying there’s stillthe traditional education that gets the message through.Almost as if that’s more valuable, at leastto the learning than what you’re talking about.Phenomenon based learning.Well, I think this was something that you couldexpect to hear when you start something new.So you are struggling with how to do it and what isthe proper way and what is the role of the teacher.But in a way, I believe that we are inthe way of learning about how it can be practiced.And I don’t believe that the teacher can juststand behind and look how the pupils are doing.I think the role of the teacher is evenmore important than in the traditional way of teaching.So they really have to bevery careful when implementing this method.So teachers become coaches in a way ormentors rather than a sort of a lecturer?Yes, traditional way teacher.Do you think children have changed and that perhaps the jobof teaching them is harder now than it used to be?Actually, I believe that our children arechanged because they are living in thedifferent world that we used to live.So teaching in the traditional way isnot meeting the reality of our kids.How have children changed?Well, just think of digital education and how they are doingthings at their lesser time and they are more capable of,for example and they don’t need a teacher to tell themthings, but they can do that on their own.And I think they are more brave to dothings and so natural with all these digital devices.And then if they go to the school that isrepeating the procedures as a result, do they come toschool and they’re perhaps more difficult, they don’t behave aswell because they’re thinking, what’s the point of this?Of course it can reflect the behavior of our kids.But I don’t think that it’s the behavioral problem.It’s kind of that I’m afraid that more andmore pupils are bored and they don’t see aschool where they can do interesting things.All the interesting thing happens in their lesser time.So school for children now is lessrelevant than perhaps it used to be.What about the suggestion that they’re less respectful?So they’re less I wouldn’tsay that they’re less respectful.Of course their way of interaction has changed.But I believe, and I’ve seen that the kids, theyare respecting the adults, but if the thing that theyare doing at this classroom does not connect to theirlife, of course even us, if we have to worksomething that does not make sense to us, we arepoor and maybe starting to do something else.So change the school to make it relevant to the child?Yes, we don’t want to change the child,but we want to change the school.Well, let’s go back to etuterle schoolagain to hear what Finland is famedfor this laid back style of educating.Sila, can you tell us what’s going on in this class?Okay, the Finnish and literature teacher is giving themthose matriculation exams that we had last spring.So it’s the exam paper from last?Yes, this is the exam paper and now theteacher is asking what kind of things or skillsthey need to survive in this test. Okay.What’s striking is that we’re ina class of 25, 30 students.They’re all chatting, quite a lotof them are on their phones.Is that quite normal?Yes, that’s just the way things are.Yeah, it’s pretty often like thatwhen the teacher is giving instructions. Okay.It depends.Sometimes they can chat.Some of them were chatting with theirfriends, they were trying to find groups.Right, so the chatting is about the work?Not all, but some of them.And they’re looking at an exam paper althoughthey’re, what, 1819 years old, they have yetto sit an external exam in their life?No, this is going to be the firstnational test they have been assessed throughout theirschool, but only by their teachers.Only by the teachers.So they do tests within the classroom, butthey haven’t yet done it seems extraordinary.They are 18 or 19 years old.And this is the first national test and thisis the last national test they ever have.Because you can see, although there’s alot of chat, they’re all very curiousto see what’s in these exam papers.Yes, but the tests that they do inthe school, are they under timed conditions?Is there stress attached to the internal exams?The teacher can decide they can have books withthem or they can have a legal teeth notewith them or we have a group test andthat’s because of the freedom that you’re allowed? Yes.And that’s something that is strange to you?Strange to us?It is completely alien when Finnish students aresitting their exam for the first time ever.Is that a stressful time?Yes, it is and it’s exciting times andit’s a big event for the students right.And a lot of revision and a lot of preparation.Yes, a lot of preparation.And of course, they have a partytoo, before the test and after test.The finished way of doing things. Yeah.I love the fact that teachers are they havethis status of an authority figure, but they stillknow how to kind of level themselves down atthe same level of the students.So you kind of consider them as an authorityand as a friend at the same time?Yes, we do.Sometimes not.It’s really based on what kind ofa relationship you have on that teacher.I love the fact that you can actually havea chat with your teacher and talk about personalissues and they’re okay with it because they can.Like after the class ends, a 30 figurebreaks down and they just become normal personswho you can chat with about normal stuff.So it’s really great how you can be friendsat the same time as they’re teaching you.It really kind of puts upthe motivation to learn, really?Yeah, because you’re not takingorders from your superiors here.You’re just taking advice from peoplewho know more than you.You enjoy coming to class because mostof the teachers are so enthusiastic abouttheir work and what they teach.And I’ve noticed by myself, the older I get,the more respect I have for the teachers.Mario ColinAN, we heard there what Finland isfamous for, its laid back teaching style.And when this country topped the Pisa International League Tableof Education Systems, a lot of people said it wasthat that was part of the recipe for your success.Why do you think Finland’s system is so good?Well, something very profound was done 40years ago when we had a bigschool reform and we turned our educationsystem into totally inclusive, comprehensive education.And that means that all the kids from theneighborhood, irrespective of their background or family support, willbe sitting in the same class taught by thesame teachers throughout the compulsory education.That is nine years.And it was a peak reform and abrave accent towards a totally different education system.Entirely comprehensive.Entirely comprehensive.And it was not only that the kids were putin the same class, but it forced us to rethinkour pedagogy, and that was something that made the difference.Then there are things like the quality of the teachers.They all have master’s degree and theyare really committed to their work, andonly 10% are accepted onto courses.Yes, and it’s really something that has alwaysbeen very valued in Finland as it is.And there is the lesson of we are verydecentralized country and we very strongly believe that thedecision making has to be at the crash level.But it wasn’t until 1980s, 90s thatwe have this very decentralized system andno inspectors and no national tests.But I also I believe that one key thingfor our success, that we respect our teachers, werespect our principals, and we believe that they canmake the best decisions when it comes to thelearning, the curriculum things, how to practice teaching.But there’s very little hierarchy in schools.Very little.Yes, we have our leaders, but the teachersare very empowered and we trust that theyare capable and they are willing when. “ WWW.ARMINIC.COM “ Are doing their disease and how they teach their kids.There is an argument that has been put forward that thosewho came to see why you were at the top ofthe league tables went away with the wrong lessons learned.Here’s Professor Tim Oates of Cambridge University.What happened is that these hordes of researchersand policymakers descended on the country and theyall asked basically the same question it’s 2000,you’ve done incredibly well in Pisa.What are your schools like?It was entirely the wrong question.The kids in Pisa were 15 years old.What they should have asked when theyarrived was, what has your education systemlooked like for the last 2030 years?The improvement in Finland actuallycame from the 1970s onwards.In fact, Finland peaked in 2000 and hasreally been on the way down since then.And that’s not a criticism of Finland.It’s just the way it is. It’s just the way it is.Okay, so there was this myth born thatthe Finnish system doesn’t have inspections or testing.And that was the message thatwas taken away from Finland?Yeah, absolutely.It was not a message taken away.It was a message that was repeatedly written up andthen promulgated around the world, and in some cases hasbeen given as very strong advice to a range ofcountries anxious to improve their own education systems.What should the answer have been?Well, to start with, there was a criticaldiscourse about the problems of education in Finlandand that occurred during the 1960s and 1970s.But from that came a discussion about what thesolutions might be and then a convergence on theidea that what would be a very good ideawould be a fully comprehensive education system.It was then enforced with an extraordinary set ofmeasures from the center, inspectors sitting in the backof every classroom, teacher training state approved textbooks andcritically grade testing in every year.And that is almost a complete opposite ofthe message that came back as to whatwas good about the Finnish schools.I’m afraid so.It is literally an opposite storyand fascinating because of it.Mario Cullinan do you think Professor Oatesis right there, that actually some mythsdid develop about Finland’s success in education?Well, I agree with him that the designof our current education system, that was thekind of the basis for our success.But it was the right act to force ourteaching practices in a way that we are reallycapable of supporting different learners in the same group.And what I’m very proud of our education systemis that the learning gap in between the weakestand the best learner is the smallest.Even now, it’s the smallest among OECD countries.You say you’re proud of that.I’ve also heard people say that’s because youdon’t stretch the very able children well enough.Actually, that’s our challenge.That’s our challenge for the future, how to arrangethe learning environment in a way that we aresupporting the weaker learners or those that having difficultiesin their learning process, but also enables the brightones to reach their potential.And that’s one of our main issues inthe new concept of the future school.So the Pisa tables were introduced in the year 2000.Since 2006, Finland has beenslipping down the Pisa rankings.Why do you think that is?It’s very hard to give the right answer.Why have we been dropping?Of course we have been thinking of that.And in 2001, our schools were more homogeneous.And for example, in Helsinki today, we have morethan 20% non native Finnish speakers in our schools.And that’s a very big challenge because wehave sorry, forgive me it’s as a resultof immigration and immigrants not speaking Finnish.Well, that would be too simple.But I think one of our challenges is wereally have to invest in teaching Finnish language.Because now what we see that even the secondgeneration of our immigrant children, they are left behindin their learning results one or two years lowerthan their mates that have native Finnish speaking families.But that’s only one thing that worries us.I’m not that concerned about our ranking in Pisa.I’m more concerned that do we meet the needs ofour kids that we are having in our school today?You may have slipped in the league tablerankings, but you are still one of thebest education systems in the world.Is there not a danger that by doing whatis quite a radical reform, that you will jeopardizethat you will jeopardize what you have?Well, the role of Finnish school is not to be the bestin the bisa, but to prepare our kids for the future.And of course, we’re very proud.We want to be on the top, to be honest.But that’s not our main objective.There are people in Finland in your own educationsystem who are very worried about what you’re doing.Let’s hear from Sirku Kupinen.She’s a senior researcher ineducation at Helsinki University.I really think that the decline in theFinnish learning achievement rather refers to the needof more exact subject based teaching instead ofthis phenomenon based learning, this integrated project, thiswill in fact crumble down the knowledge andskills base in different subjects.You don’t get the full understanding anymore about whatthe students can do and what they can’t do.And if you don’t know what they can do, it’s veryhard to say what could be the next step for learning.Okay, so your fear is that you won’t beable to tell whether a child has learned andthat children won’t be able to learn?As yeah.Yes, both of those.And because it’s very hard, because the schooldays are relatively short in Finland, so thetime awarded to literacy subject is relatively small.And if out of that, these projects then eventake some part I don’t see how the mathworks that it would profit the are you worriedabout yes, I am honestly worried about it.About what it’ll mean for education?Yes, because I’m afraid that this kind of projectwork, it sits better with better students but thefact is that I’m afraid that there is enoughresearch showing that all kind of progressivist, open ideasmainly tend to serve those coming from better educatedhomes and be detrimental to those who don’t.Mario Cullinan what you are doingis a gamble, isn’t it?Well, in a way yes.And if you are not practicing in the properway, what usually happens is that there are oneor two who are in charts and the otherare just chilling around and not learning anything.So the very crucial question is how do youplan and how do you coach the learning process?And if you are neglecting that pupils willnot learn the things but to our experience,the quality of the learning process is good.One of the charges that could be said aboutthis project based learning is that what you’re doingis you’re training for the jobs market rather thaneducating for the joy of broadening your mind.Well, I wouldn’t say like that.Of course, we are preparing our children with theskills needed for the future society or labor market.But I think the most profound thingis that they enjoy the learning.And my wisdom for the Future school isthat the school would be and should bea place where the pupils love to learn.They love to come to school.You talk about the childrengoing into a different world.What do you think are the 21st century skills theyneed that they are not getting from the old system?Well, I believe that our kids need to knowhow to work with different peoples and how tointeract with the peoples from different backgrounds.So I would underline the collaborative way of doing thingsand very close to that goes the social skills andthen we should teach our children critical thinking, creativity andto be innovative and creative you have to be braveenough to take risk and to fail and to learn.And then lastly, I would mention the skill ofcross disciplinary thinking that you can look at theproblem from different perspective using the thinking tools ofdifferent subjects or sciences behind them.I just wonder, listening to you, how much of thisis a sort of faith on your part that it’sgoing to work and how much is down to well,we’ve tried it here and it worked.Well, I must say that it has workedbut you haven’t been able to test.I mean, Finland famously doesn’t testso how do you know?Well, some people they believe in tests but I don’tbelieve in tests even when I was primary school teachertesting is of course one way to show that inthis particular moment, I remembered by heart.But if you ask two months after that, is it somethingthat the kid really learned or was it something that youmemorize and then you put it on the paper?So I think this is more complicated.And if you are only thinking that the evidenceis the test, then you are a bit misled.But what I hear from the teachers, from researchers, wesee very strongly that we are going to do itstep by step and also trying to model what isa good quality of phenomena based learning.And it’s not only fate.It’s also something that wehave experienced in our schools. Dr.Mario Cullinan. Thank you for coming on. The Educators.Thank you.